featured interview:
Rose Aguilar
(July 2005)
“I just don’t understand how anyone could vote for Bush!” That was something of a mantra for despairing Kerry voters in the aftermath of the 2004 election. Discourse about the country’s future had descended largely into matters of “us versus them,” and it hasn’t moved forward very far since. Red vs. Blue. Hollywood vs. Mainstream. The Godly vs. The Heathens. The Educated vs. The Hicks.
Following Bush’s reelection, journalist Rose Aguilar wasn’t quite sure what was in the hearts and on the minds of voters, either, but instead of waiting to hear it explained by media buzzwords (“family values!”), she hit the road herself, leaving San Francisco for the supposedly entrenched red lands of Texas and Mississippi. Her journey continues, but she’s already found plenty of stories to enlighten, enrage, and inspire. Her website, Stories in America, offers a wide selection of tales from the road, and can be found at www.storiesinamerica.org.
What inspired you to commit to such a big undertaking?
Well, during the election, I really felt that the media stereotyped the red state voter and the blue state voter, and I thought the stereotypes were incredibly simplistic. They polarized the country. And I really got sick of listening to journalists from New York and Washington D.C. tell me why the red state voters vote the way they do. They said things like, “Moral values are important.” I thought, “What exactly does that mean?” The whole red state term has such a stigma attached to it, especially when it’s used by blue state voters. You’d hear, “They’re stupid, they’re backwards, how could anyone vote for Bush?” I thought that wasn’t fair, and it came from a lot of so-called open-minded liberal friends. Unfortunately, because the media is so corporate these days, the idea of doing on-the-ground journalism where you spend six weeks in a place to really get to know the people – that doesn’t exist anymore.
I was really genuinely curious to find out why people liked Bush or why they favored the war or were against gay marriage. The media would say, “John is opposed to gay marriage because of his religious beliefs,” and that’s all you get. There’s no depth. I want to have conversations. I want to ask people, “Where does this belief come from? Do you have any gay friends? Do you know anyone in Iraq? Do you feel safer?” And, as time progresses, I want to live in very Republican areas and find out what it’s like to be a progressive. How do you build a progressive movement in a very conservative area? The progressives get absolutely no attention. I met so many of them in Texas, especially in the small towns, who are doing incredible work. I really think they deserve more attention, especially from progressives in the more liberal cities. The other reason I wanted to do this is that we never talk about the fact that half the country doesn’t vote. To say that Texas or Mississippi or any of these states are “red” is misleading. I met so many people who don’t vote, so many young people who are apathetic—and a lot of adults who are apathetic. There are a lot of people who aren’t happy with Bush and weren’t happy with Kerry and decided not to vote. I think that’s the other big untold story: apathy.
I was actually struck by the other side of the coin. It seems like a lot of the people you’ve talked to have formed strong opinions and are at least somewhat informed.
Some, of course, have more facts than others. (laughs) That actually has been really interesting. I have met so many passionate people who have so many opinions—strong, strong opinions—about the war and how the Bush Administration has impacted their lives. These are poor communities, African-Americans who have a number of children and work 50-60 hours a week. They talk about the fact that there were no weapons of mass destruction, that Saddam Hussein wasn’t connected to 9/11, they talk about the Downing Street memo. I say, “How do you have enough time to keep up with all of this news?” A lot of the people I met don’t have Internet access. People lose sight of the fact that not everyone has a computer. But they want to be informed, and they’re really passionate. Then I meet a lot of white, wealthy Republicans who say that the weapons are hiding, that they’re in Syria, and that Saddam did have something to do with 9/11. I fault the progressive movement in many ways because I don’t think there’s enough diversity. You go, for example, to a progressive event in San Francisco and it’s incredibly white, middle upper class and highly educated.
Do people ever cede ground when they’re challenged? I remember the one person who blamed Clinton for outspending Bush and cited Clinton’s impeachment as an example of overspending, as if the Democrats had been behind that.
The goal isn’t to challenge, it’s to have a conversation, but it’s also to bring up facts—and in some cases challenge. If the person I’m interviewing is my age or younger, I feel much more comfortable having a sort of debate. Out of respect, if they’re older, I’d rather get the information than make someone angry. And I’ve been invited into homes of Republicans. I definitely live in a bubble in San Francisco, and I guess I don’t meet many Republicans on a regular basis. It’s been really interesting. There are a lot of a tax cut Republicans and moderate Republicans that don’t have a voice right now. They’re not happy with the religious tones that are being brought in. They’re not happy with Bush’s views on social issues. But they still vote Republican because they want tax cuts and they believe in small government, even though they don’t think Bush is running a small government. That’s another untold story: there are a lot of moderates and they just don’t have a voice, and some of them are even afraid to criticize Bush—especially in Texas. A lot of people just said, “You don’t speak out, you don’t criticize Bush, because he has so many connections here.”
What’s the fear there? If I have an antiques shop on Main Street, are they going to close me down?
(laughs) Well, I went to a wealthy area in Dallas called Highland Park, and I met one woman whose husband is a doctor. She said, “I just don’t want his social circle to know how I feel.” I met another woman who was job-hunting and she said, “He’s got so many connections here, chances are he’s connected to a corporation and, if he’s not, chances are that the employer is a Bush supporter.” It’s just not something you bring up. I met a lot of Democrats, too, in that area, and all of them said, “I’m the only Democrat around.” (laughs) I thought that was funny because I’d just met five in an hour. Maybe if they’d wear their politics on their car, they’d realize they weren’t the only ones around. They don’t. Some people said they would never put a Kerry sticker on their car in that neighborhood. I was surprised at the hesitation to speak out, especially coming from a place like San Francisco, where people wear their politics on their sleeves.
San Francisco is home for you. Are you from there originally?
I grew up 45 miles north, in Petaluma, which used to be referred to as the Chicken Capital of the World. (laughs) But I’m a California native, and California is pretty much what I know.
Are people skeptical about talking politics with a stranger from famously liberal San Francisco? Are they worried you’re going to do some kind of Daily Show thing to them?
You know, I thought that would happen. I wondered how I’d be received being from San Francisco, especially in a conservative area like Texas. I got a few of the “Is everyone gay in San Francisco?” questions, or older men who thought all California girls were blondes. Young male Republicans, when I’d introduce myself as being from California, they’d immediately say, “Oh, you’re a liberal.” But people have been so hospitable. They haven’t asked me for my credentials. Half of the people haven’t asked for a business card or to see where I worked. It’s just sort of “Great, come on over!” and they give me their address and have lemonade waiting. People have been so kind. I’ve been actually really surprised at the openness that people have with complete strangers.
Well, that’s nice to hear. It’s also probably a testament to how people feel that no one has been listening to them.
Oh, definitely – especially in Mississippi. Republican or Democrat, they said, “We are so sick of the bad rep we get.” You know, when you hear stories about Mississippi, it’s always the high poverty rate, the high teen pregnancy rate, the high illiteracy rate. This state always comes in last in everything. So of course they have problems. But there’s a huge, thriving arts community in Jackson, Mississippi. I’m vegan and I found a vegan restaurant there with a great health food store. That was a nice surprise.
You must have had some tough stretches, especially in Texas.
In South Texas, it was hard. They cook their beans with bacon and they cook the rice with chicken stock. (laughs) I was eating a lot of tortillas and guacamole and salsa.
You know, I was surprised by some of the statistics out of Mississippi in the 2004 election. Some of the counties tilted very heavily for Kerry.
Oh, yeah, the Delta. 65 percent Kerry! The Delta is such a fascinating place. It’s incredibly poor. I would guess that a lot of the towns won’t be around in 50 years. You can tell that they were thriving. The blues were basically born in Mississippi, and there are a lot of clubs and there a million points where people could visit, but they’re so far off the highway now. And because of Wal-Mart and corporations coming in, the small farms don’t exist. Even the stores that we stopped in, the owners said, “We’re barely making it here.” You just can’t get by on minimum wage and the majority of people that I’m meeting on this trip make minimum wage—in the Delta especially. I interviewed a lot of young people and they said there’s basically nothing to do. There’s no movie theatre, there’s no YMCA, there’s no after-school programs, and so they resort to violence. The crime rates are pretty high in certain towns in the Delta because there’s nothing to do.
And these are pretty small towns, right?
Yeah, really small towns. And, you know, a lot of the Republicans I’ve met have focused on personal responsibility. “This is America. You have the opportunity to make something of yourself.” But when you live in a town where all the stores have broken windows and are left to crumble, you have no after-school programs, your school is in bad shape, your parents are barely making it…you don’t have many options. These kids even said, you know, “I’m not looking for handouts. I just want an after-school program. I want a community center.” It’s fascinating. I tell them, well, the Republicans say that everyone has a chance to make it. And they say, “Look, a lot of us come from domestic violence. There’s alcoholism. There’s poverty. It’s really hard to crawl out of this hole.”
Do they identify with something that the Democrats or progressives are presenting from their platforms, or is it just that they need a change?
I think the civil rights movement has a lot to do with it. A lot of people say the Democrats are the party of the poor, but during the presidential debates, the words “poverty” and “poor” never came up. Kerry constantly talked about the middle class, but he never talked about the poor. I think if someone focused more on issues of poverty and excited people and gave them a reason to get out and vote, I really think that there could be a shift. I’m going to write Trent Lott a letter and say, “You should be ashamed of yourself. You’re giving companies all of these tax breaks and the Delta is in such bad shape. What would it cost? $10,000 to build a community center?” He should be so ashamed of himself, being a senator from Mississippi. The people are hungry for information and they’re hungry to improve their lives. But how can you do that when the only jobs possible are Taco Bell or McDonald’s or Sonic Burger, making $5.35 an hour?
On a state level, are there any Democrats who are making waves or making a difference? Is there any good news on the radar?
You know, a lot of people said that there are Democrats in power, specifically in a lot of the black towns. But no one really talked about any change, change that they could see. A lot of people said that politicians come before election time and say they’ll bring in new jobs and build things and pay attention, and after the election, they leave and we don’t hear from them again.
Then the people have to look elsewhere, like to the churches.
Yeah. The South, of course, is incredibly religious. By now, I’m finally used to seeing churches on every corner and having people ask me, “Where do you go to church?” instead of “Do you go to church?” Because the conservatives have the microphone, we all associate churches with Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson when, in fact, there are a lot of amazing progressive churches in the south. They just don’t get any media attention.
None.
None. The progressives get really uncomfortable when it comes to religion, and they really need to start embracing religion and talking about it. Every pastor of a black church that I’ve interviewed has said, “You know, if it weren’t for the churches, the civil rights movement would have never happened. We don’t have country clubs, we don’t have meeting spaces. We basically talk about politics from the pulpit, and we think it’s appropriate.” When the evangelicals talk about politics from the pulpit, the left says, “This can’t happen! Separation of church from state!” But the black churches say, no, it has to happen. This is where we talk about politics. They’re not telling people how to vote, and they don’t focus on things like abortion and gay marriage like a lot of the evangelicals do. They talk about helping the poor and volunteering. But the majority of the religious blacks I’ve interviewed are against gay marriage and against abortion, but they don’t think that those should be political issues, and they say that they will never, ever change their vote. Every semi-religious Republican I interview – abortion and gay marriage are the first two issues that come up.
Yeah, I noticed.
Yeah, every single one.
One of my favorite quotes was, “We’re all entitled to our opinions, but their lifestyle is wrong.”
Exactly. I hear that from the Republicans a lot, especially when you challenge them on gay marriage and those issues.
Do you find that people turn around and ask you where you stand when you start asking them about those issues?
That doesn’t happen as often as I thought it would. People in the conservative churches do ask me if I’m Christian. That comes up a lot. But, no, especially the Republicans, I expected them to say, “Where do you stand? You’re from San Francisco.” But they don’t.
I would think that gay marriage is an issue that isn’t really confronting them on a daily basis. Even having grown up in the rural Midwest, I know that it was an extraordinarily difficult climate for people to even discuss homosexuality.
Right. I ask everyone if they have gay friends, and I’d say that nine times out of ten, they either have a family member who’s gay or they know someone who’s gay. That was surprising to me. And they always say, “I love them, but I don’t approve of their lifestyle.” I met someone recently in Hartsdale, Mississippi, a hardcore conservative. He doesn’t think that any conservatives are in power right now. (laughs) That’s how conservative he is. When I brought up gay marriage, he said, “this gay agenda.” I said, “What is the gay agenda?” When I ask that question, not many people have an answer. He said, “Turn on the TV. All you see is gay, gay, gay.” What are you watching? I don’t see that. If you want to go after something, talk about all of the shows that deal with stereotyping women and young girls, like The Bachelorette and elimiDATE and all of those shows. I can see that.
There’s a really clear difference that I’ve seen with the progressive churches and the [evangelical] churches. The progressive churches actually kind of inspire you; they talk about empowerment, about Jesus helping people. The conservative churches just talk about sin. They leave you feeling pretty awful. There’s really no inspiration in a lot of the hardcore conservative churches.
The recent poll numbers show Bush continuing to hit the skids. That suggests some buyer remorse among conservative voters. Are you encountering that?
Yes, I am. I went to a progressive church in Austin, and the pastor talked about The Daily Show and liberal media, so I just assumed that everybody was a Democrat. But I interviewed a bunch of Bush supporters, and I say, “Why do you come to this church?” They said, “Well, we reluctantly voted for Bush and now we regret our vote.” A lot of people basically said they were open to voting Democrat, but Kerry didn’t do it for them. Even people who voted for Kerry felt that way. One of my favorite questions is “What has Bush done for the country in the past four years? And you can’t use the words ‘war’ or ‘terror’ in your answer.” A lot of people don’t know what to say.
If you’re a progressive in Mississippi, then, is there any real hope that your state is going to change sides?
Well, the other thing that I found in Mississippi is that they need a lot of organizing. I found a lot of white, wealthy liberal women. A lot. But they’re not organized. They don’t get out and do actions. I really think things could change if they did. Howard Dean is hiring three people to go to Mississippi for a few months, so that’s hopeful. They’ve got an incredible alternative press there called The Jackson Free Press. I just wish the Democrats would stop listening to consultants and political advisers and just come out and listen to the real people who making minimum wage and struggling to survive. They don’t know how to deal with gay marriage, they’re saying they need to back off on abortion. If they would just talk about prevention and hold firm to their beliefs, I think they would excite people and get more people out to vote.
On a national campaign level, I imagine Mississippi is ignored completely.
Yeah, they just assume that they’re going to vote Republican. If Kerry or someone had come here, we could have won on the local level. People in Mississippi are mad about being ignored. Of course there aren’t many electoral votes, but give people to think about—give them a reason to vote.
And if Kerry swings through Jackson and brings up someone who’s running for city council or state assembly along with him on stage, that could help make a difference, even if Kerry himself didn’t win the state.
Exactly. A lot of people have said, “Talk to us. Ask me for your vote. We’ve got a lot of friends and we’re fairly influential.” But another problem with the progressive movement is you go into Ohio for two weeks and you leave. You go into Las Vegas or another swing state and you leave. I met a woman who is a stocker at the mall, she makes like eight dollars an hour, she’s got four kids, she’s 31 years old. She has so many ideas about politics. I thought she’d be a great employee for the Democratic party to do outreach in poor neighborhoods. But they don’t have any funding! And it’s really hard to make it when you’re making minimum wage or just a little bit more than minimum wage. That’s another one that I think the Democrats need to talk more about. It hasn’t been raised in eight years.
That’s a stance that isn’t given much attention.
Nope. The Republicans say that we can’t raise it because small businesses will have to close their shops. I interviewed some Republican small business owners and they all said, “That’s farce. If you raise the minimum wage, people are going to spend more money.” They’re in favor of raising it.
Are people already aligning themselves for 2008? Or is that a game for the pundits?
It’s definitely a pundit game. It’s three years away. When I bring that up, more often than not, the Republicans bring up Hillary Clinton. And they hate Hillary Clinton—they just despise her. I have been talking to Republicans about whether they think a moderate could win, or a pro-choice Republican could win. As much as Bush caters to the far-right, when you look at the Republican National Convention, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Giuliani were the stars, and they’re both pro-choice and pro-gay. When I bring that up to people, they tend to not make the connection.
You were able to spend some quality time in Crawford, Texas. What’s the president’s adopted hometown like?
(laughs) Well, when you arrive, there’s one café and a bunch of gift shops. You feel like if you’re not a Bush supporter, you’re not really welcome because his presence is… it’s just really felt. There are stickers on all the shop windows, there’s a cutout of him and his family in the café, and there’s really corny paraphernalia like Beanie Babies. I interviewed a number of storekeepers, and I found a woman who’s a Democrat but voted for Bush because she didn’t want her store to close. His decision to move there really brought a lot of money to that town and revitalized it. But I also visited the Crawford Peace House, and that group is pretty incredible. They would be the counter to Bush. So, for example, after Bush would give a speech, the AP would go to the Crawford House and ask them for their comment.
Switching topics a bit, do you find that there’s a lot of resentment towards the so-called liberal elites? Professors and writers and Hollywood actors and the like?
I didn’t get the elite, but I definitely got a lot of hostility toward “liberal.” The word “liberal” comes up in every interview. The media and Bush have done such a good job of stigmatizing that word. There are so many negative connotations. The media throws around these terms—“the right,” “liberal”—but what do they mean, exactly? The funniest answer I get is “Communist and socialist.” “All of your liberals, you’re all communists!” (laughs) There’s definitely a lot of anger towards liberals—liberal media, liberal agenda, Hollywood is liberal.
That’s another example where people who make those charges just don’t want to hear the facts. There are a lot of liberals here in Hollywood, but it certainly isn’t a town—or even an industry—that’s being run by liberal activists. You follow the money trail, same as anywhere else.
Right. Well, it’s funny because the Republicans do such a good job of pretending that Bush is this down-home, everyday kind of guy. Someone told me, “I voted for him because he’s an average guy.” But the other thing that I’ve learned about this trip is that I never know what I’m going to find. I try not to make assumptions, but of course we all do. I just assume that this guy with a big cowboy hat, big belt buckle, and big truck has gotta be a Bush supporter. It turns out he’s a Democrat who thinks Bush is a wannabe cowboy. Or in Shreveport, Louisiana, I found a vegan restaurant—the only vegan restaurant in the area—and the owner is health-conscious and loves the environment. I’m thinking he’s a hardcore liberal; turns out he’s a pro-war Republican. I’ve never met a vegan Republican before. (laughs)
— Interview by Adam McKibbin
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